Games Day Toronto 2008 Coverage

Grayv despite saying you have no sour grapes you still come of to me as having a bad attitude towards the miniature painting aspect of this hobby. You are unwilling to put hundreds of hours into a miniature and that is what it takes sometimes to win or even make first cut. Some of the painters on this site are more than willing to do that as it betters their skills and gives them a chance of placing/winning. Your unwillingness to put the time into your miniatures is what is keeping you from winning in a higher catagory and for that its no wonder you keep losing. I have already explained why I don't have hundreds of hours to spend but I am still improving. And I don't lose all of the time... I am, like Sanjay, still learning and like to compete in categories that help me with my vast overflow of armies to complete. Good luck to you, sir. Grayv PS -Couldn't you resubmit some of these entries next year when Mr Johnson and his pal won't be there.

Sanjay, I understand your disapointment from when i talked to you a GD but look at it this way. Your painting has taken a huge leap and you should feel proud of the model you have finished with. You can really only keep improving on your own skills and I see your potential to keep on improving like many of the other serious painters on this site. Despite not being able to enter anything this year, just watching and looking at the competition really pushed me to want to try finish something for next year. I mentioned this to Vincent while looking at the entries and he agreed that these competitions really fired people up to want to improve their painting. So I have begun work already on my potential entry-aka ordered t from Forgeworld so far. Congratulations on you demon and to everyone else who placed or made the cut!!!

I'm not demeaning anybody's triumph. I'm just a hacker that tries to paint a little better every year. But I paint mostly to play. I have thousands of mini's to paint and I don't have the time to spend on any particular one. I applaud anyone who makes the cut on single figure - you are far better than I. I go with no expectations and I am always pleasantly surprised to win. I hope all of you get the sword one day. I know I won't because I don't have any desire to get it. Do your best, bring it in and see what happens. Maybe the competition is fierce, maybe not. Maybe Jervis Johnson is there, may be not. If you keep trying you will do it eventually. Don't let the competition become everything though. Sometimes you just get lucky (like me). See you in line at 9 am... Grayv That attitude is rather sad... If you don't care... why enter? You may well have beaten out somebody that spent 6 months working on their entry with the hope of coming in the top 3, and you beat them with a model you rushed and didn't even care if you won. It makes you wonder who is more deserving... As for Catagory size... most painters... especially good painters don't create something with the intention of entering in a small category. Last year lots of people entered LotR large model after the previous years 3 entries... but of all those entries.. almost all of them were rushed jobs with people just looking for an easy prize. The ones that were done well were done by people expecting to have stiff competition in the category and strive for the best they can do. Personally.. I don't feel very good if I don't do the best I can at a given time. That's why I am upset with my battle scene.. upset enough that if I can figure out a safe way to strip it without damaging the sculpting I will strip the models and repaint them as I do truely believe that it was compositionally the best battle scene enterered and the best converted of them as well. Unfortuneatly I was rushed in the paint job and I found midway through painting it that I wasn't very happy with the colour palette I chose. I would have loved to enter large scale as I like to sculpting something different but there was simply no way my bust (See the farseer bust thread) was going to be finished as I have many technical issues to address with it's construction at this point. I know Dragomir was in a similar situation with a great WIP set of busts as well.

That attitude is rather sad... If you don't care... why enter? You may well have beaten out somebody that spent 6 months working on their entry with the hope of coming in the top 3, and you beat them with a model you rushed and didn't even care if you won. It makes you wonder who is more deserving... you dont get awards because you spent the time, or because you want it more...you get it, because you earn it..whether technically or by opinions, you still earn it and lastly, since no one else noticed this: "The winners form each category excluding staff will be eligible to win the Slayer Sword. The entry that is determined the best of all entries will be crowned as this seasons single greatest entry in all of Canada and its owner will be awarded the coveted Slayer Sword." why did they not consider the other catagories? its quite clear THEY ALL should of counted for voting yet they did not include, open, large scale and battle scene(others?) even though they were supposed to as for Grayv, while you may not be upset if you do not get awarded for your efforts its easy to say to others who actually have spent hours upon hours that they should just suck it up the event wasnt bad, but we do need consistency from GW, this is just getting stupid...we as competitors shouldnt have to guess how our pieces are going to be judged, it simply is not fair to us Im tired of this competition being a "for tabletop" competition...its why it will never be more than it is... as long as GW is still trying to make it gamer friendly, and while north america is still a joke when it comes to taking art seriously(all kinds) its just gonna be the same thing year after year itd be nice if they would actually try for once....

That attitude is rather sad... If you don't care... why enter? You may well have beaten out somebody that spent 6 months working on their entry with the hope of coming in the top 3, and you beat them with a model you rushed and didn't even care if you won. It makes you wonder who is more deserving... I do care - i just don't obsess about it. I spent a lot of time on my entry as well. It was only slightly converted but it had many hours of painting. It was the first time I had tried SENMM and reflective painting and I think it turned out pretty cool. I had planned that scene for a couple of years, as my friends might tell you, and, originally the demon was going to be turning to stone as it's visage was reflected in the shield. Early this year as I started it, I decided to change my focus from a modelling challenge to a painting one. I am quite pleased with how it turned out and I learned a lot. Winning something was nice too. I am sorry if you think it was rushed... As for Catagory size... most painters... especially good painters don't create something with the intention of entering in a small category. Last year lots of people entered LotR large model after the previous years 3 entries... but of all those entries.. almost all of them were rushed jobs with people just looking for an easy prize. The ones that were done well were done by people expecting to have stiff competition in the category and strive for the best they can do. Actually I won that category and I was quite proud of my entry. Since I collect the entire range of LOTR, it made sense to use Sauron as my entry since it would give me an excuse to paint a model that i might avoid (since he is generally too powerful to use as a playing piece). It was my first attempt at indirect lighting and I improved on my NMM. As you say, if people are trying for slow categories solely to escape competition, then it is poor sportsmenship (in my opinion). That, actually was my original point many posts ago. If you just happen to enter a slow category, oh well. I have won fast and slow but I really value a good match. Personally.. I don't feel very good if I don't do the best I can at a given time. That's why I am upset with my battle scene.. upset enough that if I can figure out a safe way to strip it without damaging the sculpting I will strip the models and repaint them as I do truely believe that it was compositionally the best battle scene enterered and the best converted of them as well. Unfortuneatly I was rushed in the paint job and I found midway through painting it that I wasn't very happy with the colour palette I chose. You just need to give it more time. I hope you kick my ass next year. I will gladly shake your hand. I would have loved to enter large scale as I like to sculpting something different but there was simply no way my bust (See the farseer bust thread) was going to be finished as I have many technical issues to address with it's construction at this point. I know Dragomir was in a similar situation with a great WIP set of busts as well. I wouldn't mind Large Scale but I have yet to find something there that interests me. Obviously Dragomir is the king in this area - he would be the one to beat. Guys, I'm not the antichrist. Let's keep this competition fun and not fall into the trap of going for gold at all costs. That was my point. you may not agree with the judges and all but this is part of the setup. You just have to accept that it is subjective. The historical guys have a better system -golds are handed out based on ability as well as silvers and bronzes with no number limits. If there are four models worthy of gold, then four people get golds. It is unfortunate that only 3 people win. I alluded to this before when I said about winning on a particular day when certain people show (or don't) and a certain judge is present. The next year could have different results for the same entry. You could have kicked my butt with a different judge but then maybe you have won in the past due to a judge that liked yours more than mine. Who knows? Who cares? I just paint, try to exceed last year's model and see how far I can push my luck. Maybe if I spent hundreds of hours I would be pissed too. Another good reason to continue my hobby the way I want to.

you dont get awards because you spent the time, or because you want it more...you get it, because you earn it..whether technically or by opinions, you still earn it Right! and lastly, since no one else noticed this: "The winners form each category excluding staff will be eligible to win the Slayer Sword. The entry that is determined the best of all entries will be crowned as this seasons single greatest entry in all of Canada and its owner will be awarded the coveted Slayer Sword." why did they not consider the other catagories? its quite clear THEY ALL should of counted for voting yet they did not include, open, large scale and battle scene(others?) even though they were supposed to They never do... while you may not be upset if you do not get awarded for your efforts its easy to say to others who actually have spent hours upon hours that they should just suck it up Well, I do swear a little I must confess but it just fires me up for next year (you know... next time I am gonna blah, blah blah). As I commented in my last post, I cannot fathom what it must be like to spend a year on a figure and not win. I hope I never find out. If I did, i would keep entering the bugger until he won something, lol. As I said earlier, military miniaturists give out multiple golds in the same categories - that would help a lot. As well, how about this idea - veteran category - any Slayer winners or anyone winning 3 or more golds in the past must compete in this category alone but it would be Open in that it could be any kind of entry. This is also what they do in other types of competitions. Otherwise the same guys win year after year ( and that's sort of happening now, isn't it). It gets kind of boring. I was noting that the more serious this gets, the nastier it gets. Leave me out of that. It also occurs to me that despite their claims, some painters are definitely NOT having fun.

we enjoy painting, we simply get frustrated when we get slapped in the face(i wasnt victim to this myself this time) its just a simple solution that GW just doesnt seem to care about "then just attend other events" thats great, except the only other events are in the US, and very few of them close or anywhere near close...and also not many are sci-fi fantasy about the winning...the winning onyl changes when more people step it up, and this is what Team Montreal and others are trying to achieve by attending events, is to spread the knowledge and motivation to paint to the higher level, because anyone can do it if they are willing the problem you see most often is people make excuses, often with "styles" or "opinions" which is complete crap and proven to be so every day by artists all over...the best always use the same fundamentals, rather than try and ignore the basic principles if you ignore the basics, or important parts of the fundamental base, you simply put yourself at a disadvantage the simple solution again is to simply have the following: -more support and care -better lighting when it comes to the painting areas -better organization for the painting areas -better organization, control, consistency for the judges, less obvious "well i judge this way..." and more "well im following the rules for judging with a bit of my own opinion as well"

Ah well, there's the thing. Personally I do the following: 1) Come up with a cool concept 2) Figure out if I can do it 3) Do it to the best of my ability or until I get sick of it (whichever occurs first) 4) Enter it I cannot control the competition on Gamesday and I cannot control who the judges are. Screw it. Here we go... I have received a Bronze for basically showing up while settling for a Silver because Jeremie Bonamant happened to enter my category (like, I'm gonna beat him right?). Heck, if you don't laugh about this shit, you'll just cry. Who can tell, right? Grayv

I disagree about adding a "Masters" category. I know I cannot make a single error, and I have to step it up to a level beyond my own experience to compete against Jeremie, Mathieu, Melnik, etc. If I knew I didn;t have them circling like sharks in my categories, I honestly don;t think I'd try as hard. The goal of this competition is two-fold: *to push yourself *to win Each of us as painters has to decide the personal weight of each. Personally, I use the goal of winning as a means to push myself. Last year, I did exceptionally well...even though I only placed in one category out of my 5 entries. For me, placing was an ego boost that said "yes, you are a good painter". However, earning two HM's in 40K single (thanks to Starks) and WFB single showed me that I have the foundation to build upon. It wasn't about winning...it was about seeing where I fell in the pecking order of some of the world's most excellent painters. When I left GD last year, I knew I had something to build on because of how I showed. My weight is 75%/25%. I don't go to win...I go to gain inspiration and motivation...winning, or even being recognized is just reassurance that I'm on the right path. I do spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours on my entries. I do that for me, because I'm a painter.

I can tell you with a fair bit of certainty as to why those categories mentioned above were excluded from the slayer sword. Both the judges were from the UK if I'm correct... In the UK, those categories can't win the Slayer.. these judges, probably didn't read the Canadian rules. I also didn't mean to degrade your winning Sauron model Grayv, to clarify... there were a ton of entries in LotR large model last year, some of them were even joke entries and many had no real reason to be there other then the hope than nobody else would enter. To that end, I do realize that there were entries that legitimately did belong there, and as such, those models won. The real problem is that there is no Criteria.. It's not just a case of art being subjective, but there are absolutely no guidelines on how models are judged. I realize it can't be standardized completely, but we as painters are getting anywhere from little to no feedback on the models we enter from the people that count: the judges so we don't know how to improve them. Sure, other painters can tell us what they think would make the model better, but if that's not what the judge is looking for.. it doesn't matter.

Yes you are right - there is no feedback except through circles like this (and not all of it constructive). Problem is that the judges change every year. And even then, one judge might really dig undead and the vampire mini beats you out slightly because it's a vampire. I honestly think that you devotees are really banging your head against a wall. I admire your quest for excellence but the system as it is becomes a real heartbreaker. What does everyone think of the multiple gold, silver, bronze system used in most other figure competitions (like Euromilitaire - probably the greatest selection of painters on the planet)? I think everyone would relax a lot more and there would not be so much negativity. Mind you, Euromilitaire is judged by the pros themselves. To me, a lot of the single fig's are amazing - i cannot tell how they pick them. They get to see the models a lot closer than I do, though. If you keep making the cut, you are definitely going to get something eventually. I generally make the cut but I usually have a fair idea if I have a reasonable chance. At least now, we get a cool pin. To think of all the pins i would have... I might add that although i am a self-confessed army painter - it's the army building that drives the huge economic workhorse that we call GW. No armies - no Gamesday. Painting will always be of lesser importance. You would be happier with the historic crowd - just ask Dragomir if you don't believe me. Grayv

Most of us would be into historical miniatures if we didn't love fantasy so much. I think it's that simple. There need to be competitions like Ravage here in Canada; I know of only one major, non-GW fantasy painting event which Gen-Con in the United States. IIRC, it does not follow the same system as Euromilitaire and Ravage which (IMHO) renders it unnecessary to painters who mainly do GW work. I do know that this years World Expo in Girona will have some reknowned fantasy painters judging the fantasy category, which was not the case at 2007's Euromilitaire. This is a step forward in my mind, and hopefully similar contests will come to North America in a more consistent (read: annual) format.

I think multiple golds/silvers etc. is rediculous. It seems so much of the world is trying to avoid competition. However, competition always proves that the best will rise to the top. When you degrade competition to a "you're all winners" state, then you accept a mediocre managment system that encourages nothing but entitlement based events. It's very simple...do and be your best, and hopefully you will win. Nobody deserves anything...we all have to work for what we want. Grayv...I'm not saying this to belittle your posts...I think you have some excellent points in other areas.

Lol, ok so someone out here doesn't think i am a complete idiot. Listen, these guys at Euromilitaire getting golds, well... if you think that's watered down, you are mistaken. Take a look. It just means there are many masters at this event (across Europe and N.A) - there is room for more than one gold. If you are serious about one winner per trophy, well... don't be heartbroken if you are not one of them - after spending hundreds of hours on a piece that could have won with another judge.\ I hate sounding patronizing but I don't know you and so I don't know what you have researched. Here are the mag's I normally subscribe to: 1) White Dwarf 2) Fine Scale Modeller 3) KIt Builder 4) Amazing Figure Modeller 5) Figure International (historical) 6) Cry Havoc 7) No Quarter 8) Imagine FX (art mag) A lot of reading there. Only one GW title. It's a bigger community than you might think and a LOT of it is fantasy. Just not GW fantasy. I have succeeded at GD enough that I feel ready to try something new. Not to say that you will not see me next year or after that... but for me, it's strictly optional. Some of the stuff out there will blow your mind and it has nothing to do with GD. Grayv (I actually almost never keep up with these mag's - I am about 5 months behind in WD).

It just occurred to me that since i only paint 5-7 hours a week it would take me a whole year to paint ONE guy for single fig (well, to be competitive, you know). Jeepers! I'm 44 - I'll never get through all this stuff. Huge eBay sale the day after I am gone. I hope you single fig devotees get to paint more often... See, getting old sets priorities. Having three kids also doesn't help. And a job or two... Why didn't I start this when I was in my twenties ( I was too busy playing Doom). Grayv

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